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Was God Unjust in 2 Samuel 24?

Posted by Matthew Elton at 10:52 AM on November 07, 2009

Was God Unjust in 2 Samuel 24?

by Matthew Elton

Question:

In 2.Samuel 24 God commands King David to count Israel and Judah. After David follows his command God punishs [sic] him:

2.Samuel 24,1-17

"Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, "Go and take a census of Israel and Judah." So the king said to Joab and the army commanders with him, "Go throughout the tribes of Israel from Dan to Beersheba and enroll the fighting men, so that I may know how many there are."...

David was conscience-stricken after he had counted the fighting men, and he said to the Lord, “I have sinned greatly in what I have done. Now, O Lord, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a very foolish thing.”...

So the Lord sent a plague on Israel from that morning until the end of the time designated, and seventy thousand of the people from Dan to Beersheba died....

When David saw the angel who was striking down the people, he said to the Lord, “I am the one who has sinned and done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done?* Let your hand fall upon me and my family.”"

*David realizes God being unjust in killing thousands of innocent people.

Of course, it doesn't make sence [sic]. God commands David to do something and punishs [sic] him for obeying - that is not just. The story of 2.Samuel 24 contradicts the claim that God is just. Therefore 1.Chronicles once more takes care of the problem and changes the story:

1.Chronicles 21,1-2

"Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel. So David said to Joab and the commanders of the troops, “Go and count the Israelites from Beersheba to Dan. Then report back to me so that I may know how many there are.”..."

In 1.Chronicles 21 it's not God anymore who incites David but Satan. God was exchanged for Satan in order to justify God's punishment (which still isn't just since he kills thousands of innocent people because of one person's action). Thus a new contradiction is created though ("...the LORD...incited David...saying, `Go take a census...`..." <----> "Satan...incited David to take a census...").

Some theologians may say in 2.Samuel 24 it's God letting Satan incite David but we see clearly that this is not the case because it's written that God tells David what to do and since Satan has no influence on God, it's clear that God makes David count the people.

The book 1.Chronicles seems to function as the "white knight" for the books of Samuel in trying to vanish the "phenomenons" (mistakes/contradictions) contained.

Answer:

God has not killed anyone who he will not raise up at the Final Judgement to judge with perfect justice. Life is from God, and he can take it away, he can kill, but he will also resurrect and judge with perfect justice. God’s justice cannot be understood apart from the bigger picture of the future resurrection, judgement, mercy, and fulfillment of the Kingdom of God.

David was not “incited” but “moved” (as the Authorized Version reads).

2 Samuel 24:1 KJV

And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

God did not “incite” David to do something, and then punish him for it. As an analogy, suppose I have a dog that I must train not to take food from others, since I feed it plenty of healthy food, and strangers might feed it something unhealthy or even poisonous. After training the dog to eat only my food, I will create a situation that will test it. I will “move” the dog to eat the meat from a stranger, and it will receive a punishment (the meat may be laced with hot peppers). The dog had the free will to choose whether to obey my command of “do not take food from strangers” but I still “moved” the dog to eat the meat by having a friend of mine tempt it with peppered steak. If the dog had refused the meat, it would not have been punished. There is no violation of free will, and therefore the punishment is not unjust.

In my aforementioned analogy with the peppered steak for my dog, how would I teach my dog not to accept meat from a stranger without using a stranger? God moved David to number the people by allowing Satan to provoke David. This isn’t a foreign concept. The same thing happened in the book of Job where God allows Satan to persecute Job, in order to test Job’s faithfulness to God (Job refuses to curse God even when faced with seemingly injust persecution, thus proving to be faithful - and for his faithfulness Job is richly rewarded).

Categories: Answers to Questions

7 Comments

Reply Bobby E.

07:37 PM on December 22, 2009

There is problems with this argument because the same attributes given to Satan are also attributed to God. Jealousy, anger, and only a god of vanity would care more about people believing in him than how we serve and love each other. All the attributes given to God are contradicting and cannot be held by an object simultaneously.

Christianity amounts to the claim that we must love and be loved by a God who punishes someone else for another's sin, who requires torture, bloodletting and sacrifice to appease his vanity is in essence Satanic. If God was incapable of forgiving on his own free will, he is fallible in love, benevolence and omnipotence

In the Bible, Satan speaks with God and does God's bidding. Jesus rebelled against God's old Judaic laws, subverting laws for love. He edited the 10 Commandments down to 6 and then finally down to 1. He made a new commandment and covenant, which by definition, is meant to supersede the old.

In the 31st Chapter of Numbers God sanctions crimes - that he should abhor - such as murder, rape, enslavement, and child abuse. In 100's of passage he commits murder & orders the murder of innocent men, women children & unborn children and also rape, sexual slavery & annihilation of entire cities. He also punishes children for their parent's and leaders iniquities and punishes all women and men because of Adam and Eve's disobedience. The connections makes no sense.

God knows the future, so how did humans become something he didn't intend? He put all things into place that caused the fall from grace. A god who is just would not have foregone with a creation he knew was doomed by his own hand. He is the ultimate authority of love, compassion and benevolence but he was powerless and incapable of forgiving by his own free will? People go to hell for the simple act of not believing in him or Christ? Only Satan posing as God would not want people to examine their faith, to be afraid of the truth, and would care more about whether someone believes in him than how we serve and love each other.

(Matthew 19:18b-19) Jesus claims that the last 6 commandments, which are about how you treat each other are the ones you need to keep to earn eternal life. The six he mentions do not mention God or faith, but are consistent to his teaching about religion as compassion, not allegiance, and of His example of reversing legalistic laws in favor of love. Jesus on the Sermon on the Mount changed the law to only the law of love.

By the time the Gospel of John is written, his list of commandments is down to one. (John 13:34-35) "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

Reply Matthew Elton

10:08 PM on December 22, 2009

Bobby E. says...
only a god of vanity would care more about people believing in him than how we serve and love each other.

Contrary to what many preachers would have you believe, simply believing in God is not enough for salvation! As it says in James 2:19, "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." Salvation comes through faith, but as it says in James 2:20, "faith without works is dead." If we TRULY believe that Jesus willingly paid the price for our sins out of love for us, we should WANT to follow his teachings, not in order to gain salvation through our own works (as followers of other religions do - obeying rules and rituals in order to attain salvation for their own selfish gain), but out of respect and awe for what Jesus has done for us, and a desire to show his love to the world. He has done so much for us in purchasing us eternal life that following his commandments is the least we can do. Faith in Jesus as Lord therefore goes hand in and with a lifestyle of obedience to his teachings, which focus on loving and serving God, and one another (Matthew 7:12, Matthew 22:38-40). This does not mean that we will be perfect. We have all sinned, otherwise Christ's sacrifice would have been unnecessary. But true faith should produce "the fruit of the Spirit" which is a turning away from sin to a lifestyle of love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, goodness, self-control, meekness, and temperance - see Galatians 5:22-23

Everywhere Jesus went, he commanded people to "repent" (Matthew 3:2). Repentance is a change in lifestyle. It means turning away from sin and going from a lifestyle of sin to a lifestyle of holiness. True repentance is a change in heart that produces a change in actions. If we really have faith in Jesus and we really believe in the sacrifice he made for us, then we will WANT him to be our Lord, and we will WANT to follow his teachings and commandments, again, not to earn salvation, but out of love for him and love for our fellow man.

Jesus said "No man has greater love than this, that he lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:13). Imagine if your best friend dove in front of a gunman who was about to shoot you, and took the bullet for you, sacrificing his own life so that you could live. Then, in his dying breath, he told you to do something. Wouldn't you do it - no matter how hard it might be - out of respect for the incredible sacrifice he just made for you? This is the type of mentality we are called to have as Christians. We are sinners saved by God's grace, but faith should produce in us a desire to follow the commandments Jesus gave us, because Jesus showed so much love to us when he died in our place, that following his commandments is the least we can do in return.

Continued in next comment....

Reply Matthew Elton

10:09 PM on December 22, 2009

Continued from previous comment....

Habbukuk 2:4 tells us "The righteous shall live by faith." Salvation comes through faith, but if we go on sinning and never love or serve one another, then can we truly say that we have faith at all? In Matthew 6:15, Jesus said, "if you refuse to forgive others, your Father will not forgive your sins." This proves that salvation is not only a matter of having faith in Jesus and the sacrifice he made, but there are also actions we need to take in order to be saved - specifically, forgiving one another.

The Bible also makes it clear that people who live habitual lifestyles of sin will not be saved. Everyone sins, but people who sin habitually will not be saved unless they repent. Here is what Jesus has to say:

"Not everyone who calls out to me 'Lord, Lord' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter."
--Matthew 7:21

"Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord' and not do what I say?"
--Luke 6:46

"If you love me, you will keep my commandments."
--John 14:15

The Epistles also tell us that people who live in habitual sin will not be saved.

"but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin."
--1 John 1:7

Notice the word "if" in this verse. In order to be cleansed from sin, we need to "walk in the Light". This doesn't mean that we will never sin. But it does mean that we should live a holy lifestyle in which we do not follow sinful habits. It means that instead of living according to the "sinful nature" we live according to the Spirit. This passage from Galatians is very important:

"So I say, let the Holy Spirit guide your lives. Then you won?t be doing what your sinful nature craves. The sinful nature wants to do evil, which is just the opposite of what the Spirit wants. And the Spirit gives us desires that are the opposite of what the sinful nature desires. These two forces are constantly fighting each other, so you are not free to carry out your good intentions. But when you are directed by the Spirit, you are not under obligation to the law of Moses. When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God."
--Galatians 5:16-21

The bottom line: As Christians we are called not only to be believers in Christ, but FOLLOWERS of Christ, living as Christ lived, following his teachings and his example. Serving and loving one another should be the central focus of our lives. Contrary to what you seem to claim, God greatly desires for us to serve and love one another, so much so that when Jesus returns to judge the living and the dead, those who will be precisely those who served and loved one another, helping those in need, doing good works even "unto the least of these" and therefore doing them unto Jesus (Matthew 25).

Reply Matthew Elton

10:09 PM on December 22, 2009

Bobby E. says...
Christianity amounts to the claim that we must love and be loved by a God who punishes someone else for another's sin, who requires torture, bloodletting and sacrifice to appease his vanity is in essence Satanic. If God was incapable of forgiving on his own free will, he is fallible in love, benevolence and omnipotence

If it seems "unjust" that Jesus suffered for our sins (and did so willingly, I might add), perhaps you'd prefer the alternative of dying on your own cross. Or if it seems unnecessary for Jesus to suffer when God could have, out of omnipotence, simply forgiven everyone without anyone suffering, would you like to live in a nation with no justice system, where criminals get off scot-free?

God is a God of justice. But if he gave each man what he deserves, we'd all be dead, since we have all sinned, disobeying God, and therefore we do not deserve to live. Another option which God could have chosen is to simply forgive everyone, and that would be that. But if this were the case, the worst of sinners and the holiest of saints would be equally rewarded, and there is no justice in that. As I demonstrated above, Jesus paid the price for the forgiveness of our sins, but that does not mean that all the sinners in the world get off scot-free. Forgiveness of sin is available to all, but rather than simply giving it to everyone automatically (which wouldn't be very fair since serial killers would suddenly be just as holy as saints) it comes through making Jesus the Lord of our lives. This is a transformational process in which the Holy Spirit works in our lives to produce the fruit of the Spirit - love, joy peace, patience, self-control, and above all, service to one another (the greatest commandment). Sinners are therefore transformed into holy sons and daughters of God as they repent and allow the Holy Spirit to work in their lives. We are the clay, and God is the potter. As we come to him, he ensures that our lives are used according to his good plans and purposes. You seem to advocate a system in which God simply hands out "get out of jail free" cards to all humanity - from the holiest of saints to Osama Bin Laden - so we can all go on sinning without any worry. But God chose a far superior method of forgiveness. Forgiveness is made available to all through the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross, but we must come and follow Jesus in order to receive this gift of forgiveness. In so doing, we become better people through God's transforming power!

Bobby E. says...
In the Bible, Satan speaks with God and does God's bidding.

Why shouldn't he? Satan is inferior to God. He was created as an angel, for the SOLE PURPOSE of doing God's bidding. That is what he is SUPPOSED to do! In the beginning he rebelled, refusing to do God's bidding out of the free will God had so graciously given him. Satan disobeyed God, and continues to do so. This does not mean, however, that he is incapable of obeying God if he so chooses. We see in the book of Job, for instance, that Satan did do God's bidding. Remember: Satan is a fallen angel. Like any other angel, he is capable of obeying or disobeying God. As we have seen throughout history, Satan is notorious for disobeying God. But Satan is fully capable of obeying God - as he SHOULD do, being inferior to God - as we see in the book of Job. If Satan were not capable of obedience, then he could not be justly punished for his disobedience.

Reply Matthew Elton

10:10 PM on December 22, 2009

Bobby E. says...
Jesus rebelled against God's old Judaic laws, subverting laws for love. He edited the 10 Commandments down to 6 and then finally down to 1. He made a new commandment and covenant, which by definition, is meant to supersede the old.

Finally down to one? Jesus gave more than one commandment!

"If ye love me, keep my commandments."
--John 14:15

The works Jesus performed testified that he is the Son of God. The Apostles marveled at these works, saying, "surely this man is the Son of God!" Other prophets had also performed miracles by calling on God for assistance but never from their own authority. For example, when Elijah raised a man from the dead, he had to pray three times before God granted him the power. In contrast, Jesus performed great miracles by his very own authority! Even the wind and the waves obeyed his words! Clearly Jesus is not just another prophet. His works prove that he is the Son of God:

"But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me"
--John 5:36

"But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him."
--John 10:38

"Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake."
--John 14:11

Jesus is the Messiah foretold by nearly all of the Old Testament prophets. He is the Son of God, one with the Father in heaven (John 10:30). He spoke the words of God (John 7:16, John 14:10, John 14:24) and everything he did was in perfect obedience, harmony, and unity with his Heavenly Father (John 14:20). The New Covenant he established was in perfect accordance to God's plan for a New Covenant, which had been foretold by the prophet Jeremiah:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."
--Jeremiah 31:31-34

This prophecy has already begun to be fulfilled. Its ultimate fulfillment will come when Jesus returns and Kingdom of God is fully established on Earth. In that day, everyone will know the LORD face to face. Yet even now, God has forgiven our sins and written his law in our hearts through the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

Rather than boiling the Judaic law down, as you so claim, Jesus RAISED THE BAR! In the Mosaic Law, murder was a crime. But Jesus taught that anyone is angry at his brother, he has ALREADY committed murder in his heart! In the Mosaic Law, adultery was a crime. But Jesus taught that if a man looks at a woman with lust, he has ALREADY committed adultery in his heart. Jesus raised the bar!

The bottom line: The prophet Jeremiah had already foretold of the coming New Covenant which was firmly established in God's plan. Christ's miracles and his fulfillment of biblical prophecies prove that he is the Son of God, in perfect unity with the Father. Therefore, the changes he made the Law were in fulfillment of God's already-prophesied plan for a New Covenant, not a rebellion against God.

Reply Matthew Elton

10:12 PM on December 22, 2009

Bobby E. says...
In the 31st Chapter of Numbers God sanctions crimes - that he should abhor - such as murder, rape, enslavement, and child abuse. In 100's of passage he commits murder & orders the murder of innocent men, women children & unborn children and also rape, sexual slavery & annihilation of entire cities. He also punishes children for their parent's and leaders iniquities and punishes all women and men because of Adam and Eve's disobedience. The connections makes no sense.

Remember that we all deserve death for our sins of disobedience to God. Rather than asking why God commanded the Israelites to fight in a some instances of the Old Testament (since the coming of Jesus God has never again commanded anyone to fight, since the era of peace has come - see my article "A Theology of Peace" for more info) the real question is why God allows so many billions of sinners to live! It is only out of grace and love - the same compassion we are called to show to the world.

God has never sanctioned rape or child abuse.

Slavery in the Bible is very different from the slavery that used to exist in the United States. In the Bible, most slaved AGREED to be slaves in order to earn something (e.g. the right to marry a man's daughter) in return for however many years of labor. In any case, the Mosaic Law required that slaveholders treat their slaves well. In fact, every seven years a "Year of Jubilee" was held in which all salveholders were required to set all of their slaves free!

Adam and Eve brought death into the world. The wages of sin is death. But before you blame Adam and Eve, consider your own life. We have all sinned in one way or another. To say that we are punished for Adam and Eve's disobedience is not correct, since in reality it is for our own disobedience that we deserve to be punished. If you never sinned, you would never die.

Bobby E. says...
God knows the future, so how did humans become something he didn't intend? He put all things into place that caused the fall from grace. A god who is just would not have foregone with a creation he knew was doomed by his own hand.

God is omniscient in the sense that he knows everything that has happened and is currently happened. And God can inspire prophesies about the future which are guaranteed to come to pass because God will make them come to pass! But God does not know every action that you are going to do (although he can read your mind, so he has a pretty good idea) for the simple reason that you have free will. If the future was predetermined, there would be no free will. In the words of Jedi Master Yoda, ?Always in motion, the future is.?

The Creation was NOT doomed by God's own hand! It was doomed by the free will decision of Lucifer to rebel against God, followed by the free will decision of Adam and Eve to disobey God, followed by our own disobedience. God himself is not to blame.

You act as if God already knew from the beginning that Adam and Eve were going to sin. But it had not been predetermined that man would definitely, 100% beyond the shadow of a doubt, eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God gave humans free will - the power to choose to obey him or disobey him. In choosing to do this, God chose to give us the power to bring sin into the world through our disobedience (disobedience to God = sin). Why did God do this?

The answer is simple. Without free will, the universe would be both boring and pointless. Would you rather God gave us no free will? Can you honestly say that you don?t appreciate the amazing gift of free will, which enabled you to write your argument in the first place?

If God so chose, he could have created robots that had no free will but followed set and predetermined laws instead of making their own choices.

Oh wait, God already did that. They?re called rocks. Some of them can fit in the palm of your hand. Others are quite large, like Mars, Venus, Mercury, and Luna. All of them follow set and predetermined laws that govern all of their movements (i.e. laws of physics such as gravity, inertia, etc.). In short, God gave us free will because the alternative would be a universe of nothing but rocks.

Bobby E. says...
He is the ultimate authority of love, compassion and benevolence but he was powerless and incapable of forgiving by his own free will?

In what way is God incapable of forgiving?

Reply Matthew Elton

10:12 PM on December 22, 2009

Bobby E. says...
People go to hell for the simple act of not believing in him or Christ?

NO. They do NOT. Sorry for the capitalization, but this is an important point so I wanted to make sure I got your attention. The Bible teaches that the wages of sin is death, not eternal life in hell. Please read my article "Will the Unrighteous Burn Forever in Hell?" here:
http://www.faithfirstmedia.com/apps/blog/entries/show/2080414-wil
l-the-unrighteous-burn-forever-in-hell-

(Matthew 19:18b-19) Jesus claims that the last 6 commandments, which are about how you treat each other are the ones you need to keep to earn eternal life. The six he mentions do not mention God or faith, but are consistent to his teaching about religion as compassion, not allegiance, and of His example of reversing legalistic laws in favor of love. Jesus on the Sermon on the Mount changed the law to only the law of love.

The six commandments Jesus mentioned in Matthew 19:18b-19 do not mention God or faith, but this does not mean that Jesus did not teach about faith in God! When asked "what is the greatest commandment in the law?" Jesus replied: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind." (Matthew 22:37)

Bobby E. says...
By the time the Gospel of John is written, his list of commandments is down to one. (John 13:34-35) "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

This was a new commandment, but not his only commandment! In the very next chapter Jesus said "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15). This verse - and many other verses like it - prove that Jesus taught more than one commandment, even in the Gospel of John.